Posted in Biblical, Catholic answer, debate

RENZ PEJANA (Catholic) VS. BOY BAUTISTA (Born Again) DEBATE

Boy Bautista

I am a Catholic and throw all statue or Saints devotion or worship, I stop praying Hail Mary because , Mary is not God. I only call God the Father , Holy Spirit ant Jesus the Son od God and the Messiah. .

Renz @Boy Bautista, If you are really Catholic, you should have known the role of statues in Catholicism. Images and Saints are not worshiped in Catholicism, reverence and worship are not the same. We can ask help from Saints so that God will have mercy on us and be admitted to Heaven. Mary is the mother of Jesus, most probably Jesus cannot refuse her if she will request Him to include you in Heaven. Images are just expressions of the Catholics’ love and faith in God and his Saints. If you hold a picture of your loved one and kiss it, will you commit the sin of idolatry? Jesus and His apostles teach us to worship God in spirit (mind and heart), whether you use images or not, as long as your mind and heart are directed to God above. Psalm 2:12 commands us, ”Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him”.  If you want to kiss God, how can you express it if He’s originally a spirit or unapproachable light? Let’s not understand the Bible by picking two or three verses only, let’s understand the Bible by its context. We should also use our common sense. God said His words do not change, and His founded kingdom is for everlasting, and it cannot be overcome by the gates of hell. To accuse the Catholicism of corrupting the Church is the same as accusing God that He’s lying. Of all the religions, it is only the Catholicism that can defend their Faith.

Boy Bautista  @Renz , Mary and all other saints cannot hear your prayers because they’re all dead. If truly you don’t worship those images, take them down from the altar, because altar is for God only. And you are kneeling down before those images, and the images will remain in your subconscious as you continue worshiping even with closed eyes.

Renz @Boy Bautista, not all people died, for example Enoch and Elijah did not experience death [2 kings 2:11 & Hebrews 11:5]. And not all dead are asleep because Abel though he was dead, he could still speak to God because of his faith, kindly read;

[Hebrews 11:4] “By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.”

As I had said in the previous, we should understand the Bible not by only one or few verses, we should understand its context. The image is not really the issue of God’s hatred, but because people were worshiping gods other than Him. I think you are not familiar about the Ark of the Covenant. In (Exodus 25: 18), God instructed Moses to make two gold cherubim [Cherubim is pl. form of Cherub means angel statue] and placed them over the Ark of the Covenant. Then He commanded the Israelites to pray or request before that Ark. Joshua fell and prayed before that ark, and the Lord answered him (Joshua 7:6-11). Even King David held a feast for the Ark of the Covenant with the two cherubim over it (2 Samuel 6: 15, 19). He sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before it, he was dancing and leaping with all his might before it (2 Samuel 6: 13, 14). David was despised by his wife Michal for what he had done, so the Lord closed her womb (2 Samuel 6: 16, 20, 23). What Michal did is comparable to what the non-Catholics are doing today who despise the Catholics for celebrating a feast and dance before a holy image. King Solomon made Cherubim too under the instruction of God and placed them in the inner sanctuary of God’s Temple (1 Kings 6: 23-27). God also instructed Moses to make a bronze statue of snake, and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived (Numbers 21: 8-9). Therefore, God does not prohibit the people to revere or use an image devoted to Him and His kingdom, as in the case of Micah’s carved silver image (Judges 17: 3). Judges chapter 18 tells about Micah’s carved silver image which was brought by Danites when they attacked Laish, and God let them conquered Laish.

Boy Bautista  @Renz , Then, why you don’t have Patron Saint Enoch and Patron Saint Elijah? Besides, your reasoning did not raise Mary from the dead. Have you not seen the Cherub in the Ark of Covenant? They are facing each other, not facing the people. None like them in the Catholic churches all over the world. Your images are clearly dead idols (I know it as I was with it for 30 years). No idolaters can enter the kingdom of God (Revelation 21:8). You must acknowledge that you are sinner and need a savior from heaven and ask Jesus Christ to come-in into your life as Lord & Savior. That’s it, no transferring of religion, just come to Jesus Christ in prayer.

Renz  @Boy Bautista

: You are funny, the issue here is the worshiper facing the image, and not the image facing the worshiper. If you try to argue that it was permissible by God to pray before the carved cherubim because they were facing sideward, then a worshiper can easily avoid the sin of idolatry, all he has to do is to turn his face towards the side of the image. So your reasoning is inconsistent.

: In (John 21:25), Apostle John says that there are still many works of Jesus which are not written down. And beside the Bible, we should also use our common sense. If Jesus could bring a criminal to His paradise [Luke 23:43], how much more his own mother? Mary is certainly in Jesus’ paradise. Moreover, there are many people around the world claiming that holy Mary appeared to them.

: Enoch and Elijah were born long time before Christianity, therefore, the Catholic Church is not in the position to declare them as holy. Besides they are already in paradise, there is no need for them to be canonized.

: Saints or holy people although they are dead, are not asleep, they are with Jesus. Kindly read;

[Revelation 6:10] And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

: No Catholic that will say his God is the image that he faces while praying. All Catholics know that their God is spirit and in Heaven. Whether you face an image or not in praying, God will judge us by our mind and heart, and not by gesture or food. Instead of accusing the Catholics, you better examine your own religion because your religion is only good at accusing but cannot defend its own doctrine.

Boy Bautista  @Renz , You obviously did not see the cherubs at the Arc of Covenant, they are facing each other closely with both wings touching each other, you cannot go in between and worship one of them. Besides, it is absolutely not permissible to worship any form of image in behalf of God. Religion is business, true Christianity is not religion but personal relationship with the Savior – knowing each other intimately.

Renz  @Boy Bautista, I have seen it. In fact before I bring up comments, I checked them first. However the issue is not the positioning of the images, but the Catholicism is accused by Christian sects for committing idolatry because they use images in their worship method. Images are just regarded holy and not worshiped in Catholicism. Christian sects always used [Exodus 20:4-5] to justify their accusation. Let us read these passages starting from verse 3 for us to have a better understanding;

3You shall have no other gods before Me.

4You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, on the earth beneath, or in the waters below.

5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me

COMMENT: in verse 3, God begins his commandment by saying, “you shall have no other gods before Me”. The issue here is not really the images themselves, but people who worshiped other gods (like Molech, Golden calf, Asherah, Baal, Bel, Amon, Dagon, Tammuz, Zeus, Hermes, Artemis, and many others). Why God hated these images? Because these were the images of gods that the Israelites worshiped. The Catholicism is the owner of the Holy Scriptures, so they know better than all rebellious groups.

: One of the purposes of God to send Jesus to the world was to found His Church. Jesus said to Simon Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Mt. 16: 19). So if we want eternal lives, we need to be bound by this Church or religion. God only found one Church for eternity. Those Churches which are founded by mere men are not authorized by God. How come these groups can enter the kingdom of Heaven?

Boy Bautista  @Renz , you don’t worship them? Why kiss them and bow down before them? “5You shall not bow down to them”. You are bowing down before them, bowing down is an act of worship… that is clear. The Catholicism did not own the Holy Scriptures, in fact, all of them were written by Hebrews not even a single Roman writer. The “key” of the kingdom is Jesus Christ himself and the church is every person having the Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit living in them NOT the church/religion made by men. RC was founded by Emperor Constantine in Constantinople – now Istanbul. The church founded by Jesus Christ is his creation not the creation of people. How to enter God’s kingdom? Please read John 3:5 and Matthew 18:3. If you really own the Holy Scriptures, you should have written: “You must be a Catholic to enter God’s kingdom”, but instead, you wrote” “You must be born again” – John 3:7.

Renz  @Boy Bautista

A. If we kiss something, it doesn’t mean we worship that something. If you kiss the hand of your grandpa it doesn’t mean you worship him, but you respect him. If you kiss your wife, it doesn’t mean you worship her, but you love her. If you bow to a being it doesn’t always mean you worship that being, it can also mean you revere or honor that being. If a Japanese bow to you, it doesn’t mean he worships you, but he respects you. And this what a Catholic is doing, he shows his love, respect, and reverence to God or Saints by kissing and bowing to their images.

B. It appears that you have no knowledge about the History of the Roman Catholic Church. The earliest Christian Church in Rome was not founded by Romans or an emperor, but by Peter and Paul (the Hebrews who owned the Scriptures).

A BRIEF HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY

In 32 A.D. after the ascension of Jesus Christ, the apostles spread the good news initially from Jerusalem throughout the Roman Empire. In Rome, the apostle Simon Peter together with Paul established the Church which Jesus Christ told to Simon Peter, “and I tell you that you are peter [“peter” derived from Greek “petros” means rock], and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Mt. 16: 18). In the year 107, St. Ignatius of Antioch named this Christian Faith as the Catholic Church [catholic derived from Greek katholikos means universal]. It became the state religion by Armenia in 301; Georgia in 319; and in the year 380, Theodocius 1 declared this Faith as the official religion in Rome. It is only the Catholic Church that can trace their root to Jesus.

C. Jesus is not the key himself, but He holds the keys of the kingdom. “Key” means authority, and Jesus assigned these authorities of the kingdom to Peter alone. So the notion that you can go to Heaven by yourself or by another church is false. Try to examine yourself if you have the capability to fly into Jesus’ abode. It is only by the power of Jesus that we can be transported to Heaven. Therefore, we must follow Jesus’ instructions and should not be isolated from His Church. The kingdom of God is not His creation because this creation will vanish like smoke (Isaiah 51:6 & 34:4). The Church (body of people) is the kingdom itself, Jesus preached about this kingdom (Matthew 9:35). Jesus is the head of the Church or king of the kingdom. Unknown to many, the said kingdom of Heaven is the Catholic Church which was established on Earth by Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and this will continue forever or in the afterlife, kindly read the verses below;

1. [Daniel 2:44] “At the time of those kings, the God of heaven will establish a kingdom that will never be destroyed. No other people will be permitted to rule it. It will smash all the other kingdoms and put an end to them. And it will be established forever”

2. [1 Chronicles 22:10] ‘He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’

3. [Matthew 16:18] “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

4. [Matthew 9:35] Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

5. [Revelation 5:10] You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

D. The baptism is only your entrance to the Church, You cannot be saved by being baptized alone. But you must believe that Jesus is your savior besides obeying the law For there is no salvation if we are not justified by faith aside from obeying the law [Romans 3:28]. Without faith in the salvation provided by Christ, we will all perish [Isaiah 51:6 & Luke 13:3].

E. You don’t need to look for a “Catholic” word in the Bible as proof of Catholicism. All you have to do is to trace back the origin of Catholicism if it can connect to Peter. The Catholic Church has so much evidence to show their authenticity.

F. To find the name of your church in the Bible is not a basis of authenticity, The New Testament was written in the first century, and your church was established in the 19th century (1,900 years gap). Anyone can found his own church and copy its name from the Bible, and claim that this church is the truth. This is also the ploy of “Iglesia ni Cristo” claiming that their church is the truth because it is found in the Filipino Bible.

Boy Bautista  @Renz You are kneeling down before those idols, you talk to them directly in prayers, I know it because I was a devoted Catholic for 30 years. Peter and Paul were killed by the Roman Catholics, please check your history. The rock is Jesus not Peter, please review your hermeneutics.

John 14:6 Jesus said, I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through me. He is the WORD. He is the DOOR, He is the KEY. There is no “keys” that is in plural form, only one key that is JESUS CHRIST alone. Your keys CANNOT open the DOOR in heaven. The true CHURCH is not the religious organizations making money and grabbing political power and invented many “keys” to heaven but the heart of individual person that received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and Confirmed/Sealed by the Holy Spirit. Iglesia ni Cristo is another cult of Filipino version. But, RC has more chances to come to Jesus than INC and Eli Soriano’s Dating Daan, they’re deeply inverted by twisted doctrine.

Renz  @Boy Bautista

1. Again, kneeling down before something is not always an act of worship. If an adulterous husband kneels down before his wife to ask for forgiveness, it doesn’t mean he worships her. If a Christian mentions Saints in his prayer, does it mean he worship them? If a child pleads his parents to give him new shoes, does it mean he worship his parents? As I had said, God examines our faith in spirit, not in our gestures or food we eat. A Christian only pleads the Saints for intercession or to ask help, pleading is not worship. Catholic Church never teaches its believers to worship idols. If indeed you were a devout Catholic in the past, you should have known that images were just symbols, and not gods.

2. Peter and Paul were killed by Roman pagans not Catholics, you are lying if not ignorant of the history. In fact, the name Catholic was not yet used by the time of Peter and Paul, use your common sense.

3. “Rock” has several meanings in the Bible, it can mean strength, fortress, refuge, shield, or foundation. God is called rock because He is the fortress or refuge of the people, kindly read;

[Psalm 18:2] “The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my Savior, my God, my rock in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the strength of my salvation, my stronghold”

Simon is called peter or rock because he is the foundation of the Church. When we build a house, we need to lay a rock or foundation on the ground first.

4. You don’t understand, I was pointing about the keys of the kingdom which were given by Jesus to Peter (Matthew 16:18). And these keys are not literal, they mean authorities. There is no such thing as “Jesus is the key” in the Bible, you are inventing a verse. You know what, Churches founded by mere men are given to lying because they cannot defend their doctrines. “Door” and “key” definitely are not synonymous. “Door” is the opening thru which we enter a house or kingdom, while “key” is a piece used to open or close a locker. If we say Jesus is the key, it implies that we use Jesus as our key to Heaven which is illogical! Jesus holds the key(s) and not the key Himself, verses about Jesus who holds the keys;

[Isaiah 22:22] “Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder, When he opens no one will shut, When he shuts no one will open.

[Revelation 1:18] “the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades”

5. The Catholic Church never ask a 10% from the income of the people. During Mass, it is okay for the Church if a believer give just a peso or none. How can non-Catholics accuse the Catholic Church for making them poor? Italy is predominantly Catholic but they are not poor. And what power of the Government that the Catholic Church grab? Have you heard a position of the government that is held by a Bishop? These accusations by non-Catholics are baseless. I sense that rebellious churches keep inventing stories to topple the Catholic Church. But as Jesus said, to attack this Church is like kicking against the prick (Acts 26:14). Catholics are now 1.3 Billions, the biggest of all the religions of the world. This is what Jesus had promised to Peter, that the gates of hell (other religions) cannot prevail His Church. God laid down steps in the Bible for people to know how to enter the kingdom of Heaven. But people like your group are disposed to rebel and make their own teachings. Saint Paul already predicted this rebellion or apostasy in his epistles, he says;

[2 Timothy 4:3-4] “for the time is coming when men will not endure sound teaching. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths”

6. God says His Covenant brought by Jesus is everlasting, so there will be no more Church to be founded. He says that the kingdom founded by Jesus on Earth is for eternity, so the Catholic Church or kingdom of Jesus will be the kingdom in Heaven. Let us remember that God’s mind and words do not change, kindly read;

[Numbers 23:19] “God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn’t change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it.”

Boy Bautista  @Renz , Even having an image on altar is already idolatry how much more when you kneel down before them. Not worshiping? You are lying to yourself. Roman Catholicism is paganism from the very start up to now. Roman Catholicism killed millions of Christians and Jews, there is no way that religious group is of God. Look at the lives of the majority of RC members, they are living in sinful lives, true Christians must be living in holy lives – you are not.

Jesus is the everything. He is the creator of heaven and earth (John 1:1-3). Jesus is not something literal or physical, He is the Almighty God, the perfect face of the Father. Jesus is the kingdom, the door, the way, the key, the secret code, the truth, the eternal life, he is sovereign God. Narrow is the way to heaven and only few coming to, but wide is the way to hell and many are going to: 1.3 billion from RC and more billions from other groups. You can think it further and deeper, you can come to Jesus personally, talk to Him seriously and ask Him what is really the truth. I will never ask to join my group, but, I will ask you to come to Jesus Christ personally, He is the Savior not my group.

Renz  @Boy Bautista

You are so ignorant of the history, the Romans who killed Jews and Christians were not Catholics.

If Jesus says He is the “door”, it means He is our way/path to the Father. If the Bible says “God is everything”, it means He can do everything, it does not mean that His being is everything. For God is definitely not an object, planet, building, airplane, space, animal, etc.. My goodness! God is not a kingdom Himself, where did you get this learning? Your church teach you falsehood. God is called a king because He has a kingdom. A kingdom is composed of a king, area, and subjects. In the Old Testament, God keeps telling that He will establish a kingdom on Earth for eternity. He will install His Son as king. This kingdom is composed of King Jesus, the 12 apostles as judges, priests, and people. Whoever enters this kingdom thru other gate is a thief (John 10:1-2). When I said that the Catholics are 1.3 Billions, I did not mean all of them can make it to Heaven. As I had said, baptism alone cannot save us. We need to believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior plus obeying the law. Brother, you are the one who needs enlightenment by Jesus. Ask him personally what’s the real truth about Him. Certainly He will answer you, “I am not a kingdom, a key, or code, and leave your church for they are teaching you falsehood”.

Boy Bautista  @Renz , Jesus is the key in the house of David, he is also the only door, he is also the way upon entering the door into the kingdom, he is also the kingdom that has no bounds. You should know who Jesus is, he is the Almighty God. The church is the person having the Holy Spirit NOT the church per your understanding that are making money and grabbing political power like the Rome, etc. Italy is now predominantly atheist and their economy is collapsing following Greece.

Renz @Boy Bautista

1. Man, don’t make any perception that is not mentioned in the Bible, it would only make your mind more confused. And also God cannot be an instrument Himself, it’s inconsistent. Furthermore, when you make a claim from the Bible, put forward a verse to back up your claims. For nowhere in the Bible that says Jesus is the key in the house of David. “Holding the key” and “the Key Himself” are not synonymous. The Bible teaches that Jesus holds the key of the house of David, here read;

[Isaiah 22:22] “I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. What he opens, no one can shut; what he shuts, no one can open”

[Revelation 3:7] “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open”

2. Again you’re inventing stories. Italy is 88% Catholic, the growth of other religion and atheism is mostly caused by migrants: https://themediaproject.org/news/2018/6/11/italys-new-government-and-the-catholic-church-increasingly-at-odds-over-migrant-crisis

Italy’s economy ranks no. 8 in the world although she experienced crisis, definitely this country is not poor: http://statisticstimes.com/economy/projected-world-gdp-ranking.php

Boy Bautista  @Renz , you already said that is not material but spiritual, you are confused. You need to come to Jesus, don’t stay with Mary or else you shall never arrive with Jesus.

you already said that it is spiritual not physical, why are you confused? You cannot limit what God can do. Italians still claiming Catholics but don’t go to church anymore.

the Isaiah 22:22 is prophetically referring to Jesus, but, RC is claiming to have the authority in lieu of Jesus thus RC is basically an Anti-Christ. Anti-Christ is not against Christ but claiming to be the salvation, has the keys of salvation. Christ is the key, and the salvation. The key is the way to open the door of salvation. Only Jesus can do that. Only Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, from the beginning to end He is God

there is no other means to salvation. His name is Salvation, Savior, Yeshua, Jesus, Christ, Messiah, etc. There is no Mary in the path to heaven.

Renz  @Boy Bautista

1. Don’t go around your mistake, admit it _that Jesus is not the kingdom or the key Himself so that you will learn. Either God meant literal or spiritual, it is illogical to say that Jesus is the kingdom or key Himself. You cannot learn if you don’t know how to accept mistakes. And also you mentioned that the church is the person having the holy Spirit. We can have many churches by your definition because there are many persons who have the holy Spirit. Jesus established only one church. The word “church” is a translation of the Greek word ekklesia, which is defined as “an assembly” or “called-out ones.” The root meaning of church is not that of a building, but body of people.

2. Yes, [Isaiah 22:22] is referring to Jesus, but Jesus pass this key or authority to Peter (the head of Catholicism);

[Matthew 16:19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

See? The Catholic Church has the authority. It is sad to say that your church has no authority from Jesus. No permit, and yet you claim that your church is the truth. You better ponder about this fact. Or else Jesus will call you a thief for you try to enter the Kingdom of Heaven other than its gate.

Boy Bautista @Renz , the many churches that are people living holy lives is called the body of Christ (you can read it in Corinthians) . I never seen a single Catholic person living holy life simply because of wrong teachings. You need to accept Jesus Christ first as Lord & Savior by faith in order to see Him. That is called born again experience (John 3:3), because no matter how I tell you, you can never see nor understand who Jesus is until Jesus himself will reveal it to you personally.

Renz @Boy Bautista Where in the Corinthians? There are 1 & 2 Corinthians, and what verse? After telling Jesus is a key or kingdom, you now have another claim. How did you know that no Catholic lives a holy life? Are you God who knows the inner part of a person? Don’t you know that “holy” means sinless or perfect? Is there any perfect man except Jesus? Are you perfect? You are a joke. After you showed to me your ignorance of the Bible and history, you have the cheekiness to declare that Jesus personally revealed to the Born Again believers the understanding, and this is called Born Again experience, Wow!

But why you are ignorant Biblically and historically? Are you sure it was Jesus who revealed to you that understanding? Because Jesus knows everything but His Born Again people are ignorant. You know what, the Bible says those people who cannot understand are evil;

[Proverbs 28:5] “Evil people do not understand judgment, but those who seek the LORD comprehend fully”

[John 8:47] “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Furthermore, we cannot be saved by just believing the saving work of Jesus alone. It should be faith plus obedience of the law;

[Romans 3:28] “For there is no salvation if we are not justified by faith aside from obeying the law”

IF I WERE YOU, LEAVE THAT CULT SO THAT YOU WILL BE ENLIGHTENED BY THE TRUE GOD.

Boy Bautista @Renz , Romans 3:28 King James Version (KJV) 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. hhhmm… it is without the law, you are twisting the word of God.

Renz @Boy Bautista. Numerous translators translated that way;

New International Version
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

English Standard Version
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Berean Study Bible
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

New American Standard Bible 
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Christian Standard Bible
For we conclude that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

International Standard Version
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the actions prescribed by the Law. 

NET Bible
For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

New Heart English Bible
For we maintain that one is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

New American Standard 1977 
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

American Standard Version
We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

English Revised Version
We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Weymouth New Testament
For we maintain that it is as the result of faith that a man is held to be righteous, apart from actions done in obedience to Law.

World English Bible
We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Young’s Literal Translation
therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.

LET US BE HONEST, IN YOUR OPINION, CAN YOU BELIEVE IN GOD WITHOUT DOING HIS LAW? WHY DON’T YOU KILL OR RAPE, ISN’T IT BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING HIS COMMANDMENT?

The book of Romans (KJV) concluded that the law should not be made void;

[Romans 3:31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

THE BOOK OF JAMES CONFIRMS THAT FAITH WITHOUT DEEDS IS WORTHLESS;

James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

James 2:20
O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

James 2:24
As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

SEE? THE ABOVE VERSES WERE MAIN REASONS WHY MARTIN LUTHER WANTED TO EXCLUDE THE BOOK OF JAMES FROM HIS OWN BIBLE VERSION.

Boy Bautista @Renz , 1 Corinthians 12:12 King James Version (KJV) 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Renz @Boy Bautista So what about this verse? It confirms my previous statements that the Church is a body of people.

Boy Bautista @Renz , I was a Catholic and still surrounded by Catholics, I never seen even one not living in sins. By their fowl words, vices, and image worship. While the real born-again Christians are full of praise and thanksgiving to God and good words and good works. Yet, our holiness and righteousness were not earned but imputed to us by Jesus Christ.

Renz @Boy Bautista So you are living in a sinless life now, how sure are you? You know what, whatever your Church does, it does not matter to God, it is useless because you rebelled from His Church, You are not belong to God anymore. You made your own gate to Heaven rather than the gate made by Christ on Peter. Saint Paul predicted already the people like you;

[2 Timothy 4:3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Here in my place, the priests keep holding masses every day from dawn to evening, the Catholics around me are worshiping God warmly. They don’t keep attacking another religions. They are brave, they spread the Gospel even the most dangerous Muslim area. But you (born again), do not, you take your converts from Catholics, investing their children, poisoning their minds that Catholic are worshiping images. You don’t go to dangerous area because you are afraid (weak faith). You just wait when an area become Catholic, And then you enter there, poisoning the products of Catholics. 

Boy Bautista @Renz , “the gate made by Christ on Peter”, you created your own gate with your out of context interpretation. Jesus said, “thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church”. He’s referring to himself the rock of all ages, existed from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus did not said, “I will build my church upon Peter”.

Renz @Boy Bautista It shows that you are not aware of the origin of the name, “Peter”. It originated from the Greek word, “petros” which means rock. Peter’s previous name was Simon, Jesus called him as rock or Petros because He made him the foundation of His Church. In other word, Jesus said to Simon, “you are rock and on this rock I will build my Church”

Boy Bautista @Renz, a body of people without the Holy Spirit living in them cannot become a church that is holy dwelling place of God. They are basically categorized as cult, RC is a cult.

Renz @ Boy Bautista, Wrong, the Church was already built by Jesus on Simon Peter, how can you say the Church of God cannot become a church? The Church (body of people) is not the dwelling place of God, but His kingdom founded on Earth for eternity. What is more cult, the group that can connect its origin to Peter, or the group that can connect only its origin to Martin Luther?

Boy Bautista @Renz, Romans 10:17 King James Version (KJV) 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Renz @Boy Bautista your KJV teaches you already that the law should not be made void through faith (Romans 3:31), and faith is worthless without deeds (James 2:20). So you better don’t propose a verse anymore to prove your doctrine. I sense that you have no interest in seeking the truth. 

Boy Bautista @Renz , Origin to Peter church is so shameful because he denied Jesus 3 times. The Living Church is everyone born with new life on JESUS. The RC cannot understand this even the pope.

Renz @Boy Bautista If Peter’s church is so shameful, then why your church copied the Bible? Why your church use the book of Peter in your Bible? Since your church followed the Scriptures of a so shameful church, therefore, your church is also so shameful, right? You don’t know what you are talking about. If RC (which is the originator of the Bible) does not understand God’s teachings, how much more your own church, which was founded very recently? Your “faith alone” doctrine even contradicts the teachings of the Bible. And yet you have the audacity to claim that you know the Bible better than the Catholic Church.  

Boy Bautista @Renz , The Truth is Jesus. The law is there for you to know that you are a SINNER. No sinner can save himself by doing good works. If ever can, Jesus should have not come and paid all sins by His blood.

Renz @Boy Bautista The law was made only to let us know that we are sinners, so after Jesus saved us, don’t we need to follow the law and continue sinning? This is ridiculous. Why is it that Jesus told the prostitute woman to sin no more if the law is no longer necessary? No matter how hard you do good works, but you have no faith the saving work of Jesus, you cannot be saved also  _this is what Saint Paul meant in his teaching. The Bible teaches us that faith and doing the law should go together in order to save our lives.

Boy Bautista @Renz , Jesus did not say, “On you Peter”. Perhaps the reason is you don’t who Jesus is, The Rock, The Foundation, The Kingdom, The Word, The Almighty God, The Way, The Truth, The Life. etc, etc..

Renz @Boy Bautista  If truly you know Jesus and His firm believer, don’t play game, let us be honest. Jesus founded His Church on rock (peter). Jesus changed Simon’s name into Peter because He chose him as the foundation of His Church. This is one of the sicknesses of rebellious Christians who could not topple the Catholic Church’s doctrine, they will resort to word-for-word basis. We are no longer a child that cannot understand a simple sentence. Love the truth because Jesus is the truth.

Boy Bautista @Renz , The Truth is Jesus. The law is there for you to know that you are a SINNER. No sinner can save himself by doing good works. If ever can, Jesus should have not come and paid all sins by His blood.

Renz @Boy Bautista It is not knowing that you are a sinner, but the law is there for us to stop sinning. No sinner can save himself by doing good works if you don’t have faith the saving work of Jesus. You must believe the saving work of Jesus first. Because there are people who do good works but don’t believe the salvation provided by Jesus, for instance the Muslims, they believe that by doing good works alone, they can go to paradise.

Boy Bautista @Renz , All of the books in the Bible were written by Hebrews, no single Catholic contributed. Salvation can be received from Jesus Christ alone. Good works that shall follow are fruits of salvation, but, if you continue the sinful lifestyle, that means you have not Jesus Christ nor believe nor have faith in Him. Works to earn salvation are direct rejection of Jesus Christ’s offer of free salvation. You obviously don’t understand “salvation by grace”, because you want to earn it.

Renz @Boy Bautista where did the protestants get the Bible in 1517? don’t tell me the Bible suddenly went into their hands? the Catholics were the ones who kept the Scriptures. and they were the ones who selected the inspired books then compiled them as bible. You should read the history so that you wouldn’t end up lying.

If salvation comes first (through faith) therefore good works comes as a result, then why there are protestants who still sinning? I don’t think they don’t believe the saving work of Jesus. There is a Born Again Church closed to our house built 8 years ago, And I had noticed that their number grew from one to more than a hundred. But I had also noticed two years after their number declined, their number today is less than 20 mostly children. I asked why their number declined, one of the ex-member said, (who is my cousin) that their number started declining when the members found out that their pastor had affairs with 3 lady members. I don’t think that this pastor doesn’t believe the saving work of Jesus. So your doctrine is inconsistent. The teaching of Saint Paul is very clear, that we can be saved through faith aside from obeying the law.

I DID STUDY. AND THIS IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNT; GOD FOUNDED A KINGDOM ON EARTH FOR ETERNITY,

[Psalm 78:69] (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “He built His holy place upon the height and He prepared it in the earth for eternity.

[Daniel 2:44] “At the time of those kings, the God of heaven will establish a kingdom that will never be destroyed. No other people will be permitted to rule it. It will smash all the other kingdoms and put an end to them. And it will be established forever”

GOD SAYS HE WILL SET JESUS OVER HIS HOUSE (THE CHURCH AND KINGDOM FOREVER);

[1 Chronicles 17:14] I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever.

GOD SAYS THIS KINGDOM WILL NOT BE DESTROYED AND WILL ENDURE FOREVER, THEREFORE NO MORE KINGDOM AFTER THIS;

[2 Samuel 7:16] “Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.”

[Daniel 7:14] “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed”.

[Jeremiah 50:5] “They will ask for the way to Zion, turning their faces in its direction; they will come that they may join themselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.

JESUS ASSURED THAT THE CHURCH HE FOUNDED ON PETER WOULD NOT BE OVERCOME BY THE GATES OF HELL (OTHER RELIGIONS). SO IT IS NOT TRUE THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS CORRUPTED:

[Matthew 16:18] You are Peter, and I can guarantee that on this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell will not overpower it

JESUS PREACHED THIS CHURCH OR KINGDOM TO THE PEOPLE;

[Matthew 9:35] Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

Posted in Christian, debate, Islamic

KIT SNOW (MUSLM) VS. RENZ PEJANA (CHRISTIAN) DEBATE

Renz Pejana:  I challenge every Muslim to defend this contradictions. Failure to explain these, means Qur’an is fake and invented by Muhammad;

CONTRADICTIONS IN QUR’AN

  1. According to [Qur’an 11:42-43], a son of Noah is drowned in the flood, But according to [21:76] all sons of Noah are saved from the flood. Which of statements is true?
  2. In [Qur’an 5:90], wine is prohibited on Earth because it is the handwork of Satan, But ironically in [47:15 & 83:22-25], rivers of wine is the prize for the righteous. So it means there will be numerous drunkards in Heaven?
  3. [Qur’an 3:59] says, Jesus is created by Allah from dust, so He is an ordinary human; But in [66:12, 19:17, & 3:45] Jesus is formed by Allah through breathing his Spirit or Word into the body of virgin Mary. Analyzing these verses, Jesus is not an ordinary human because he has no human father, in fact he is the Spirit or Word of Allah; But behold in [43:61 & 4:159] Jesus becomes a Deity for He is the knowledge of Resurrection or Judgment Day. Who is Jesus really in Qur’an, an ordinary human, Son or Spirit from Allah, or God?
  4. [Qur’an 66:12, 19:17, & 3:45] tells us that Jesus is originated from the spirit or Word of Allah; But in [5:17] says that following Christ is a blasphemy, and Allah will destroy Christ. So it means Allah will destroy his own Spirit or Word?
  5. [Qur’an 2:62] says, those who believe in Qur’an, and follow Jewish Scriptures, and Christians will have rewards from their Lord; But in [5:17] says that following Christ is a blasphemy, and Allah will destroy Christ.
  6. [Qur’an 5:5] it is lawful to marry a chaste woman among the people of the Book (take note that Muslims view Christians as non-believers), But in [2:221] says, do not marry unbelieving woman. Which of these regulations is true?
  7. [Qur’an 2:256] says, “let there be no compulsion in religion”, But [2:191 & 9:5] commands Muslims to slay the disbelievers”. Which of these commandments is true?
  8. [Qur’an 55:14] says man is created from a ringing clay; But [15:26 &28] tells, man is created from a sounding clay and black mud; But worse [20:55] says, man is made from earth or soil; But even worse [25:54] says, man is created from water; But worst [16:4 & 80:19] says, man is created from a sperm-drop; But even worst [96:2] states that man is created from a clot of blood; But even so worst [19:9, 19:67, & 52:35] state that, man is created from nothing. Which of these seven contradicting verses is true?
  9. In [Qur’an 3:39], John is a confirmer of the word of Allah, but in [5:46 & 61:6] Jesus is the confirmer of the Word of Allah. Which of the two is the truth?
  10. [Qur’an 4:153] Allah forgave Moses and his people for worshiping golden calf, But in [4:48 & 4:116] Allah does not forgive those who worship gods other than him. Which of the two is true?

Kit Snow :

Renz Pejana, Your understanding of context throughout these verses is lacking. You must consider verses pertaining to wartime for example, when you are permitted to slay an enemy etc. The verse of Noah, his family was saved from the flood, it does not say all of his sons were saved, the translation states family. I have reread everything you stated and I dont see a solid argument, all of the verses can be argued in favor of being not a contradiction. I have not seen one single proven error or contradiction in the Quran

Renz Pejana : Kit Snow, why don’t you go on answering each of my questions? Even if there is no war, your Koran commands you to kill the disbelievers. Here is the verse;

[9:5] “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful”.

And also there is force applied on disbelievers, if they don’t accept Islam, they will be killed..

Kit Snow :

When we read from verse 1 of chapter 9, it states that there was a treaty which the Pagan Arabs broke. Thus, Allah in the Quran says, that HE gave them four months. Verse 9:4 states that Allah will punish those who broke the treaty, this verse is only aimed at those who broke the treaty, it did not affect those who abided by the treaty. When we read the passage (9:5), it is evident, it’s talking about a war with the pagan Arabs. This was a historical event that happened in the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (p). Furthermore, verse 9:13 provides proof that it was the pagans who started this war. The verse states, “Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun to attack you first?” This is proof that Prophet Muhammad (p) did not start this war, but it was those treacherous pagan Arabs that started to expel and fight the Messenger. Again, context means everything.

The Quran states you cannot take an innocent life unless its for murder or corruption of the land. Even in the USA up until 1990, if you are charged with murder or treason, which could be “corruption of your land” it is punishable by death. Chapter 5 verse 32: “Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.”

Renz Pejana : Kit Snow, there is no treaty broken by the pagans, [9:1] clearly states that Allah/Muhammad himself was the one who declared cancellation from his treaty with pagans. He revoked the covenant of every party. Allah/Muhammad gave the pagans four months to accept Islam, or else they will be killed. After these four months Allah or Muhammad has no more obligation of the treaty _ this is the whole story. Islam apologists tried so hard to cover this barbaric commandments of Muhammad/Allah. He was the one who initiated the attack or war. This is the story how or where chapter 9 of Koran originated. Kindly read;

The Book of the Major Classes, (Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir) volume 2, pages 208-9, written by Ibn Sa’d Then (occurred) the Pilgrimage of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq with the people in Dhu al-Hijjah of the ninth year from the hijrah of the Apostle of Allah.

They (narrators) said: The Apostle of Allah appointed Abu Bakr al-Siddiq to be in charge of the hajj. He set out with three hundred persons from al-Madinah. The Apostle of Allah sent with him, twenty sacrificial animals, whom he had adorned with necklaces, and whose humps he had pierced with his own hands. Najiyah Ibn Jundab al-Aslami was in charge (of the sacrificial animals). Abu Bakr carried five sacrificial animals with him. When he reached al-‘Arj, Ali Ibn Abi Talib joined him and he was riding al-Qaswa the she-camel of the Apostle of Allah. Thereupon Abu Bakr said to him: Has the Apostle of Allah given you charge of the pilgrimage? He said: No, But he has sent me to read to the people “Freedom from obligation” and the dissolution agreements of all parties. Then Abu Bakr proceeded and performed Hajj with the people. Ali Ibn Abi Talib read to the people: “Freedom from obligations,” on the day of sacrifice, near al-Jamrah, and revoked the covenant of every party; and he said: After this year no polytheists will make a pilgrimage nor a naked person will circumambulate (the Ka’bah).

To support my argument that Muhammad really meant killing the disbelievers of Islam whether in war or not, I provide another sword verses. Kindly read;

[4:104] And do not weaken in pursuit of the enemy. If you should be suffering – so are they suffering as you are suffering, but you expect from Allah that which they expect not. And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

[4:89] “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

[8:12] “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” 

[9:41-42] Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew. Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars. 

Furthermore, the Islamic ‘suicide bombing, beheading, and mutilation of bodies’ in different places are evidences prompted by these Koranic laws. These facts prove that even if Islam is not under attack, they will kill innocent people.

Muhammad even raided caravans and killed people during Kaaba pilgrimage. Kindly read;

The Truth:

After his eviction by the Meccans, Muhammad and his Muslims found refuge many miles away in Medina where they were not being bothered by their former adversaries. Despite this, Muhammad sent his men on seven unsuccessful raids against Meccan caravans before finally finding one – whereupon they murdered the driver and plundered the contents. This particular caravan was especially vulnerable because the attack came during the holy months, when the merchants were least expecting it due to the generally agreed upon rule that the tribes of the area would not attack each other during that time;

[A Muslim raider] who had shaved his head, looked down on them [the Meccan caravan], and when they saw him they felt safe and said, “They are pilgrims, you have nothing to fear from them.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 424, Ibn Kathir V.2 p.242) The shaved head caused the Muslims to look like pilgrims rather than raiders, which instilled a false sense of security in the drivers. However, Islam was a different sort of religion from what the Meccans were used to: [The Muslim raiders] encouraged each other, and decided to kill as many as they could of them and take what they had. Waqid shot Amr bin al-Hadrami with an arrow and killed him… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 425; see also Ibn Kathir V.2 p.243) According to Ibn Kathir, the Muslims living in Mecca did not dispute that their brethren in Medina had killed, captured and stolen from the Quraish, but they were reluctant to accept that this had occurred during the sacred months: The Quraysh said that Muhammad and his Companions violated the sanctity of the Sacred Month and shed blood, confiscated property and took prisoners during it. Those who refuted them among the Muslims who remained in Makkah replied that the Muslims had done that during the month of Sha`ban (which is not a sacred month). (Ibn Kathir) Faced with losing face by admitting his error, Muhammad went into his hut and emerged with a convenient and timely revelation “from Allah” that provided retroactive permission for the raid (and, of course sanctioned the stolen possessions for his own use);

“They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah’s way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter” (Quran 2:217)

Notice that the Quran does not say that the Meccans were guilty of killing Muslims, only that they were “persecuting” them by preventing them from the ‘sacred mosque’ (the Kaaba). The killing of the Meccan driver by the Muslims was the first deadly encounter between the two adversaries. This is of acute embarrassment to contemporary Muslim apologists, who like to say that Islam is against killing for any reason other than self-defense.

For this reason, there has arisen the modern myth that the Muslims of that time were simply “taking back” what was theirs – rather than exacting revenge and stealing. Contemporary apologists like to say that Muhammad and his followers were basically robbed by the Meccans on their way out of town. (The 1976 movie, “The Message,” perpetuates this misconception as well).

Apologists are somewhat vague as to how property theft justifies killing (particularly on the part of someone they otherwise like to portray as the paragon of virtue); nor do they attempt to explain how the particular victims of subsequent Muslim raids (usually the caravan drivers and laborers) were directly responsible for this supposed theft. A larger problem is that there is no evidence to support the misconception that the Muslims were “taking back what was theirs”; in fact, it is specifically contradicted by the early historical record.

The event of the first attack on Meccan caravans is detailed quite well by Muhammad’s biographer, Ibn Ishaq/Hisham, but nowhere does he mention the contents of the caravan as being Muslim property. In fact Ishaq explicitly describes the goods as belonging to the Meccans: “A caravan of Quraish carrying dry raisins and leather and other merchandise of Quraish passed by…” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 424)

Note also that the cargo plundered from the caravan included raisins, which would have long since perished had they been from grapes grown and dried by the Muslim before they left Mecca nearly a full year earlier. Moreover, a fifth of the loot was given to Muhammad as war booty, which would not have been the case if it rightfully belonged to another Muslim (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 425).

Most of the Muslims living in Mecca had few assets to begin with, having been drawn largely from the lower rungs of the social ladder, but those who did would have had several years to liquidate their assets or transport them to a new location. As the instigator of the discord, Muhammad was the only Muslim literally forced to flee Mecca in the dead of night, but even his business affairs were sewn up on his behalf by Ali, his son-in-law: Ali stayed in Mecca for three days and nights until he had restored the deposits which the apostle held. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 335)

So, if the Muslims at Medina weren’t trying to recover stolen goods, why were they plundering Meccan caravans? Muhammad explains the real reason for the looting and the killing;

“If you have killed in the sacred month, they have kept you back from the way of Allah with their unbelief in Him, and from the sacred mosque, and have driven you from it when you were its people. This is a more serious matter with Allah then the killing of those of them whom you have slain. ‘And seduction is worse than killing.’ They used to seduce the Muslim in his religion until they made him return to unbelief after believing, and that is worse with Allah than killing.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 426)

Thus, the justification for killing the Meccans and stealing their goods is purely religious. The only thing stolen from the Muslims was their ability to enter the sacred mosque (ie. complete the Haj ritual at the Kaaba). The innocent caravan drivers were fair game for Muhammad’s deadly raids simply because Muslims felt “kept back from the way of Allah” by the “unbelief” of the Meccan leadership. This is all the more apparent by the next major episode in which Muhammad sent his men to plunder caravans, which precipitated the Battle of Badr:

When the Apostle heard about Abu Sufyan coming from Syria, he summoned the Muslims and said, “This is the Quraish caravan containing their property. Go out to attack it, perhaps Allah will give it as a prey.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 428) In this case the Meccans were returning to Mecca from a business trip to Syria. Any goods they were carrying would have been purchased from the Syrians.

Over the next nine years, the principal source of income for Muslims was wealth forcibly extracted from others. The targets of misfortune expanded well beyond the Meccans. By the time Muhammad died, his men were finding excuse to raid and steal from many other Arab tribes, Jews and Christians. Like the mafia, a protection racket gradually evolved where other tribes were allowed to live peacefully provided they paid tribute to Muslim rulers.

Kit Snow :

We could go back and forth forever on “history books and hadiths” that may or may not be accurate, the prophet Mohammed had the most books written against him than any other individual in history, so quoting me criteria that advises the prophet murdered and was a thief (which goes against the teachings of the Quran) is hard to take seriously. Let’s stay on topic of the Quran, God’s word and not on history books written and edited by man. I’m open to debate misconceptions in the Quran.

Renz Pejana : That is the last defense of Islam, deny the evidence as much as possible. These facts are supported by not just one author.  Just reflect on Muhammad’s personal life whether he’s moralist or not. He fucked a nine year old girl and grabbed his adopted son’s wife. If you were in the shoes of his adopted son, how would you feel? Muhammad had no sense of delicacy and respect. By this, we can analyze that he’s not a righteous man.

Kit Snow : 

“Evidence”?, “Facts”? Where are the facts about his wife being 9, actually if you do the math she is much older, supposedly. Look up Zakir Naiks talk on her age. And continuing on about facts…if what you stated was a fact, there would he no rational argument, but the actual fact is this topic of the caravans has been argued on both sides forever. It comes down to logic. If Mohammed did have a revelation and followed the revelation he recited. Than what is more likely, the accusation he raped, murdered and was a thief or that he didn’t?

Renz Pejana : These are the facts bout Aisha’s age;

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of NINE YEARS of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234) 

Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was NINE YEARS OLD. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

About the revelations, of course Muhammad invented those in order to justify his acts, or else his followers would leave him. And about Zakir Naik, don’t believe him for he is a proven liar. He even thought that vitamin C was invented.

WATCH: Never Believe Zakir Naik

Here are another facts that Muhammad fucked Aisha at nine years in case you are not contented with my earlier facts given to you;

Narrated ‘Aisha that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was NINE YEARS old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88) 

SAHIH MUSLIM

‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was NINE, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

SUNAN ABU DAWUD

Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was NINE YEARS old. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

Narrated Aisha: Ummul Mu’minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was NINE. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 49)

AND if you are really open for a debate about your Koran without outside source, I just give you only four questions to answer. Prove to the Christians that Koran is the inspired word of God. If you can’t, I hope you can realize how fake is Islam. Here they are;

  1. Islam believes Allah and the God of Abraham in the Bible are one. Qur’an says, none can change the word of God [6:115], How come Islam accused the Bible to be corrupted? It shows that Muslims don’t believe what Allah is declaring that his word cannot be corrupted or changed
  2. Allah claimed that he is God, (the all-wise, all-knower, and knower of the unseen). In verses [4:171 & 5:116] Allah thought that the persons in Trinity are Jesus, Mary, and Spirit of God/Allah (in truth it is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). How come he failed to know the persons of Trinity? It turned out that he is the ignorant God. If Allah does not know a simple topic here on Earth, how much more on matters about spirit and heavens?
  3. [Qur’an 12:39, 3:6, & 58:21] say Allah is almighty, strong, and wise, but Satan was able to sneak his words during Allah’s revelation to Muhammad [53:19-20]. It turns out that he has no control over Satan and Muhammad in uttering Satanic verses. [Deuteronomy 18:20] says, “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.” So if Muhammad had uttered other gods and Allah was not able to stop him, the verdict is, these two are fake.
  4. In [Qur’an 15:19, 20:53, 43:10] Allah says that the Earth is spread out like carpet or shaped flat, but in actual, the Earth is globular or circle. The all-knower Allah turns out to be unknowing Allah.

Kit Snow :

How old was Mary, mother of Jesus when she married Joseph? 12. How old was the age of marriage in the USA just 100 years ago? Utah was 7, California was 10, all through out the USA it was 7-10 years of age. How old were the brides of Europen kings throughout History? 5-10 years old was common, yet I don’t see you pointing fingers at USA or Europe or antywhere else in the world . Marrying young was obviously common place even just 100 years ago all around the world.

There was no school or education or career a women is saving herself for back in those days, when she is scientifically and biologically fit to become a mother then she married, there was nothing else for a woman to do in those days besides make a family.

I always find anyone against Islam to always be angry in their debates, use disturbing language and name call.

What was the ‘Age of Consent’ in European and American history, prior to the 20th century? In this article, I shall bring forth evidences which demonstrate that the ‘Age of consent’ was indeed, very young, even by today’s standards. I will provide academic sources which show that girls were allowed to be married at the age of 10 years old and sometimes times, as young as 7 years old, legally. It was norm just over 100 years ago to see girls being married off at very young ages. In most cultures, the marriage would have been consummated at the onset of puberty. 1. Professor of history Margaret Wade Labarge “It needs to be remembered that many Medieval widows were not old, Important heiresses were often married between the ages of 5 and 10 and might find themselves widowed while still in their teens.” [1] 2. Professor Richard Wortley and Professor Stephen Smallbone, both of whom state that prior to the 1900s girls married very young, “In Medieval and early modern European societies, the age of marriage remained low, with documented cases of brides as young as seven years, although marriages were typically not consummated until the girl reached puberty (Bullough 2004). Shakespeare’s Juliet was just 13, and there is no hint in the play that this was considered to be exceptional. The situation was similar on the other side of the Atlantic; Bullough reports the case in 1689 of a nine-year-old bride in Virginia. At the start of the nineteenth century in England, it was legal to have sex with a 10 year-old girl.” [2] 3. In the book, ‘Sex and Society’, “Until the late 20th century U.S. age of consent laws specifically names males as perpetrators and females as victims. Following English law, in which the age was set at 12 in 1275 and lowered to 10 in 1576, ages of consent in the American colonies were generally set at 10 or 12. The laws protected female virginity, which at the time was considered a valuable commodity until marriage. The theft of a girl’s chastity was seen as a property crime against her father and future husband. If two people were married and had sex, no matter what their age, no crime was committed because a woman was her husband’s property. In practice, too, the consent laws only protected white females, as many non-white females were enslaved or otherwise discriminated against by the legal system.” [3] 4. Richard A. Posner is chief judge of the U.S court of appeals, Seventh Circuit Chicago. Katherine B. Silbaugh is associate Professor at Boston University School of Law, they say that before the 1900s age of consent was ten years old, “The law governing the age of consent has changed dramatically in the United States during this century. Most states codified a statutory age of consent during the nineteenth century, and the usual age was ten years.” [4] 5. The Scottish Law prior to 1900s by Sir John Comyns and Stewart Kyd, “By the law of Scotland, a woman cannot contrabere sponsalia before her age of seven years. 1 Rol. 343. I. 20. But by common law, persons may marry at any age. Co. Lit. 33. A. And upon such marriage the wife shall be endowed, if the attain the age of nine years, of what whatsoever age her husband be; but not before the age of nine years. Co. L. 33. A.” [5] 6. Professor of Sociology Anthony Joseph Paul Cortese says that a 50 year old man being with a girl under 10 (being intimate) Under United States law was legal until the mid 1960s, “In 1962, the American Law Institute recommended that the legal age of consent to sex- that is, the age below which sex is defined as statutory rape- be dropped in every state to age 10 (Katchadourian and Lund 1972: 439). In fact, until the mid 1960s, the legal age of consent in Delaware was 7 (Kling, 1965: 216). So a 50 year old man could legally have sexual intercourse with a 7 year old boy or girl.” [6] 7. Maureen Dabbagh is a writer and author. Born in Michigan, she serves as a Virginia Supreme Court Family Mediator, she echoes the same statements as previous authors, “…the nineteenth century, the minimum age of consent for sexual intercourse in most American states was 10 years. In Delaware it was only 7 years.” [7]

Renz Pejana : Kit Snow, being a prophet, a messenger of the word of God, Muhammad should have known the marriageable time for woman prescribed by God. He should set himself as a model of a Godly or refined behavior. Yes this activity was practiced before, but it doesn’t mean God instructed or allowed it. I’ll give you verses in the Bible about the marriageable age for woman;

[Ezekiel 16:7-8] ” I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked. ‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine. 

: The woman’s height has fully grown, her breast and pubic hair have grown and developed, and she is old enough for love (meaning she is morally conscious). Aisha was not fully grown and developed physically and mentally when Muhammad touched her. Why Muhammad failed to know the sexual prescription by God? Because it was not God who sent him. No prophets recorded in the Bible touching a child and raping women.

Contrary to the Bible, Quran permits touching a child girl. Verses [65:1-4] provide the specifications on when to divorce a wife. Verse [65:4] mentions a wife who has not menstruated as yet, or an immature girl. Kindly read;

[65:4]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

“And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women – if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah – He will make for him of his matter ease.

MUHSIN KHAN

And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

AND also Quran permits raping (slave) woman [23:6]. Verses [23: 1-6] narrate the successful believers: those who are humble in their prayers; those who avoid vain talk; those who are active in deeds of charity; and those who abstain from sex except from their wives and SLAVES. Kindly read;

[23:6]

MUHSIN KHAN

“Except from their wives or (the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame”

: this verse tells that it is not sinful for a Muslim man to fuck his slave. I doubt if these facts for you are righteous. I doubt if you can afford to give your child daughter in marriage or you have a sexual urge for a child. These are proofs that, it is Islam which corrupted or twisted the moral teaching of the Bible. Their allegation that the Bible is corrupted has no basis. Supposing that God really looked at the Bible as being corrupted, He must have given to Muhammad the original, the pure one. In contrast, God would be a liar if His word becomes corrupted, since He said that none can change His word.. The Bible teaches to have one wife only, but Koran teaches polygamy; the Bible teaches to love your enemy, but Koran teaches killing of disbelievers and even its believers if necessary.

About an angry audience or debater, Christians and Muslim alike have tendency to get angry.. From my own point of view, the main cause why Christians get angry at Islam debaters because they are liars, they are inventing lies just to appear they are correct in the eyes of Muslims. So far I have not yet watched a Muslim debater who is not lying. Muslims just didn’t know their leaders’ falsehood since they are ignorant of the Bible and even their own Koran. On my part, I am not angry, I am just telling the truth so that Muslims will know that they are misled by a fake religion.

And about Mary’s age when married, the Bible does not specify her age. And if you say the Quran has said that, I don’t believe it, because Quran does not even know Mary personally, It thought that Mary was Merriam the sister of Aaron and Moses, daughter of Imran.

Kit Snow : 

To answer your questions:

1.) Islam believes Allah and the God of Abraham in the Bible are one. Qur’an says, none can change the word of God [6:115], How come Islam accused the Bible to be corrupted? It shows that Muslims don’t believe what Allah is declaring that his word cannot be corrupted or changed

ANSWER : Sura 6:115 states “And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” Muslims believe that the message sent to all the prophets, including Moses(Tora) and Yeshua(Injeel / Gospel) was meant for those specific people at that specific time. And it was never preserved. Now, the message of the Quran was meant for all mankind and is the last revelation. It has not been touched and remains preserved in it’s original language for over 1400 years to this day.

Renz Pejana : Brother, where is your evidence that the previous revelation was never preserved? God himself said none can change His revelation. You make God a liar by what you are saying. And where is your proof that Quran is meant for mankind? And how can you say Quran is pure? For after Muhammad’s death, there were many conflicting versions of Koran occurred. Uthman in his effort to solve the trouble, commanded to burn all copies except the version of Hudaifa.

READ: Is The Qur’an Pure?

Kit Snow :

2.) Allah claimed that he is God, (the all-wise, all-knower, and knower of the unseen). In verses [4:171 & 5:116] Allah thought that the persons in Trinity are Jesus, Mary, and Spirit of God/Allah (in truth it is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). How come he failed to know the persons of Trinity? It turned out that he is the ignorant God. If Allah does not know a simple topic here on Earth, how much more on matters about spirit and heavens? 

ANSWER :

Sura 4:171 states “O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.”

Sura 5:116 states And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen”

Nowhere in there does it claim that Allah thinks Mary is part of the trinity. in Sura 5:116 it mentions Mary because the Roman Catholics pray to statues of Mary as a saint. Brother, your understanding of these verses is off, maybe because you already have your mind made up instead of opening your heart and mind.

Renz Pejana : Brother, you are the one who should wake up, you are covering falsehood in Quran, don’t deny it, it is clear as the sky. Before my explanation, I should first put my own sources from revered translators of Quran because I have noticed you are eluding something. Here they are:

[4:171]

MUHSIN KHAN

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” – and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

YUSUF ALI

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

[5:116]

PICKTHALL

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 

: VERSE [4:171] warns the Christians not to worship Trinity or three gods. And verse [5:116] clearly emphasizes the gods of Trinity. Which are, “TAKE ME (JESUS) and MY MOTHER (MARY) as deities besides ALLAH.

Brother, Koran points out JESUS and MARY as deities besides ALLAH.. “Deity and Saint” are not synonymous. Verse [5:73] confirms [5:116] that it really meant Trinity and Allah is taken as the third of the three gods. It says;

[5:73]

PICKTHALL

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

YUSUF ALI

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. 

Kit Snow :

3.) [Qur’an 12:39, 3:6, & 58:21] say Allah is almighty, strong, and wise, but Satan was able to sneak his words during Allah’s revelation to Muhammad [53:19-20]. It turns out that he has no control over Satan and Muhammad in uttering Satanic verses. [Deuteronomy 18:20] says, “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.” So if Muhammad had uttered other gods and Allah was not able to stop him, the verdict is, these two are fake. 

ANSWER : Sura 53:19 “So have you considered al-Lat and al-‘Uzza?” Sura 53:20 “And Manat, the third – the other one?” Sura 53:21 ” Is the male for you and for Him the female?” Sura 53:22 “That, then, is an unjust division.” Sura 53:23 “They are not but [mere] names you have named them – you and your forefathers – for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.”

Let’s look at verse 23 again shall we, where Allah is saying the three fake gods people worshipped before have no authority. Again, you have quoted out of context my friend. There was no satanic verses.

Renz Pejana : Brother, I don’t know if you intend to mislead me, thinking that I had not done research before I made my questions, or you are just not aware about Satanic verses in Quran. In case you don’t know, I quoted statements from wikiislam for you. Here it is;

“The Satanic Verses (also the Gharaniq incident) was an incident where Prophet Muhammad acknowledged Allat, Manat, and al-Uzza, the goddesses of the Pagan Meccans in a Qur’anic revelation, only to later recant and claim they were the words of the Devil. Satanic Verses

Kit Snow :

4.) In [Qur’an 15:19, 20:53, 43:10] Allah says that the Earth is spread out like carpet or shaped flat, but in actual, the Earth is globular or circle. The all-knower Allah turns out to be unknowing Allah. 

ANSWER :

Sura 15:19 “And the earth – We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing.”

Sura 20:53 “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants.” 

Sura 43:10 “[The one] who has made for you the earth a bed and made for you upon it roads that you might be guided” 

None of these verses suggest the earth is flat. It does indeed say he made the earth for us like a carpet, which it is for a human like a carpet.

Renz Pejana : First, I add another sources to clarify the said verses more. Here they are;

[15:19]

YUSUF ALI

And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.

PICKTHALL

And the earth have We spread out, and placed therein firm hills, and caused each seemly thing to grow therein. 

[20:53]

YUSUF ALI

“He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky.” With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. 

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants. 

[43:10]

MUHSIN KHAN

Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way 

YUSUF ALI

(Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein, in order that ye may find guidance (on the way)

: Brother, we don’t need to look for a specific “flat” word, just analyze the verses. We cannot spread out a ball (globe) like a carpet or bed. Quran describes the Earth having a flat surface, plane, or bed.

If I may add, I will give you prophetic verses from the true word of God (the Bible) about the Earth;

[Isaiah 40:22] It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. 

: . . . above the circle of the Earth . . . If we look at the Earth from the moon or outer space, we can see that the Earth is a circle.

[Job 26:7] He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing

: . . . He hangs the Earth on nothing . . . If we look at the Earth from the outer space, we can see that the Earth has nothing to sit on or to cling to. The Bible accurately describes the position of the Earth. It is placed in an empty space, and it is as if hanged on nothing.

Posted in Christian answer, debate, Islamic

My Rebuttal to a Muslim’s Claims about Qur’an and the Bible

QUESTIONS:  

1.) Your allegation that the Quran is mainly written by Muhammad and his cohorts is a lie, read http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/quran/false_accusations/abrogation_claims_(P1216).html

ANSWER: That is one of the Masters of Arts of Islam, Master of Arts in Lying and Master of Arts in Denying. These facts are supported by several Hadiths depending on the statement. However, to cover this shame, Islam denies these Hadiths and instead acknowledges only few Hadiths, including the Bukhari which contains less shameful facts compared to the ones rejected. Nonetheless, assuming that these rejected Hadiths are indeed fabricated, let us use our common sense in analyzing the Koranic verses given by your source, and also I will provide Koranic verses to support my argument so that Muslim apologists will have no room for denial, here are the verses given by your source;

“A.L.R. this is a book whose verses have been perfected” 11:1 

: “. . . have been perfected”,  why there is a need for perfection? It means before the perfection there were flaws existed while this book was revealed by the all-wise Allah in detail to Muhammad. The fact that Allah changed or perfected Their revelations, it means They are not God. Allah have the reputation of being all-wise, all-knower, and knower of the unseen; but unfortunately errors had room in Their declarations. They failed to know the visible things and failed to see the unseen.

“……the words of God are unchangeable” 10:64

: This verse complicates more of the issue of contradiction in Koran for it tells us that none can change the words of Allah, But in verses [2:106 & 16:101] Allah substituted Their previous revelations. I will put down the wording in verse [16:101];

“And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse – and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down – they say, “You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies].” But most of them do not know.”

: This verse tells us that Allah, the all-knowing and knower of the unseen, changed Their previous revelations. What is funny after They changed Their former revelations, still They have the audacity to claim that They are the most knowing. Allah failed to stop Muhammad from uttering Satanic words during Their revelation [53:19-20], that’ts why They needed to correct them. This proves that Allah are not almighty and all-knowing. Additionally, Muhammad is a fake prophet, consider this verse;

[Deuteronomy 18:20] “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

If Muhammad had uttered other gods and Allah were not able to stop him, the verdict is, both are fake.

2.)  Read “Quran and Bible comparison”, you will know the truth: http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp

ANSWER: About your second source, I want to point out the author’s lying or ignorance about the Bible. 

THE BIBLE 

Old Testament 

“Naturally, there have been many different translations to a great number of languages over the centuries and one could not expect them (books of Bible) to be identical in text or meaning” 

Answer: One could not expect them to be identical in text or meaning? In text yes, but in meaning, there are 2.3 Billions Christians believe that the books in the Bible are agreeing to each other. 

New Testament 

“To mention two very clear differences for example; the Catholic Bible [c. 325 A.D] contains 73 books in total, while the Protestant Bible contains only 66 books”

Answer: I wonder why the author labeled this topic as New Testament but he tackled the whole Bible instead. But anyway, I proceed to answering his allegation; The Protestantism is a rebellion of Catholicism in 1517. That is their own religious principle to use only 66 books in their Bible version. The Protestants just took out 7 books from the original Bible (compiled by Catholicism). They did not alter the message or idea of any book making it different from the original. 

QURAN

The  Quran Means “Recitation” 

ANSWER: What makes it special? I don’t see the importance of being recited and written. Reciting is no longer new to the Hebrews for they recited the contents of their Scripture long before Islam. And what is wrong of being written? God himself wrote His Ten commandments on the stone tablets twice. 

The author says; “the documentation in writing about the Quran has been preserved in museums throughout the world, including the Topekopi Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, the museum in Tashkent, Uzbekistan and also in England” 

ANSWER: Provided that this claim is true, but how about in the earlier time of Islam? Was the Quran or Recitation safe after Muhammad died? Bukhari reported that there were four versions of Quran copies or Recitations emerged. And to avoid this problem, Uthman ordered to burn all copies except the version of Hudhaifa (Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510). 

Also Read: http://www.harvardhouse.com/quran_purity.htm

Koran has Only One Version – Arabic

ANSWER: What makes special in the one version? Even if the Koran was written originally in Arabic alone, it could not escape from lies, errors, and contradictions stated within. Moreover, it is not true that the Quran has only one Arabic version, nowadays, the Quran has thirty one Arabic versions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lqQBVtUWvo&t=20s.  In contrast, having many authors adds the uniqueness of the Bible, since how come the messages of the books agree considering that they were written by different authors, as well as written in different regions, languages, and generations?

The Koran is Memorized by Millions – Entirely  

 “The important thing to keep in mind about the Quran is the memorization and transmission of the actual “Recitation” just as it came to Muhammad” 

ANSWER: “… actual recitation just as it came to Muhammad“? This statement is a big fat lie, we know that there were various versions of recitations happened after Muhammad died, and Uthman chose only one version _the version of Hudaifa. However, despite of Uthman’s effort, there are still many Arabic Qurans today. 

And I doubt if there are ten Millions had memorized the Quran. Even Muhammad himself was not able to memorize all of the so-called revelations https://www.answering-islam.org/Green/forgot.htm.

Each Muslim Has “Quran” Memorized

ANSWER: This is utterly a lie. I have a Muslim Girlfriend and she could not memorize a single verse in Quran, how much more the entire book? Most Muslims today are ignorant of their Scriptures. Moreover, Islamic history tells us that only few Muslims could recite the Quran, even Muhammad could not recite the whole Quran. 

God Speaks in First Person to Mankind in Quran 

ANSWER: Another lie. Allah transmitted Their message to Muhammad through the so-called Angel Gabriel. Nowhere in Quran that says Allah appeared and talked to Muhammad. In the Bible, God himself talked to Adam in person [Genesis 3:10-11]; appeared to Abraham in three persons [Genesis 18:1-2]; wrestled with Jacob as a person or man [Genesis 32:24]; showed to Moses and Israelites in the form of cloud and fire [Exodus 13:21]. Likewise, God dwelt with the Israelites in the form of Jesus [read the Gospel]. Moreover, the said angel Gabriel did not introduce his name to Muhammad, In fact, Muhammad thought it was Satan who squeezed him since it tortured him. It was Kahdija his wife who concluded that it was angel Gabriel because it disappeared when she and Muhammad performed sexual acts [Sira No. 154, Ishaq].

Quran Mentions Itself  

ANSWER: What makes special of mentioning itself? What is more important, the mentioning or essence of the Scripture? The Quran has a lot of contradictions, ignorance, killing commandments, and immoral teachings. 

Quran Describes God’s Nature Exactly 

ANSWER: How did you know that the Koranic description of God is His exact nature? How can you believe Quran if it’s filled with ignorance, contradictions, falsehood, and myths? The Quran teaches that the sun sets in the muddy spring of the Earth (18:85-86); it teaches that there are seven flat Earths and seven solid skies; it also teaches that the stars were made by Allah as missiles to shoot evil spirits (37:6-7 & 67:5); and many more. Additionally, Muhammad saw his Allah as a man with uncircumcised penis https://sunnah.com/bukhari/81/113. 

“There is no room left for doubt after reading the Quran in the Arabic language”.

ANSWER: So if you read Quran in English, you will have room left for doubt after? If that so, it is better for Mecca to abolish all the translations of Quran, and kept their Islam themselves alone. You know what, this is one of the defenses of your religion, if it has no room left to explain the Koranic problem, your leaders simply reject the translation. I tell you, Arabic language is not alien, hence it is translatable. It is natural to have a slight divergence in the translation, but the contradictions in Quran are so grievous that it can never be justified. There are three, four, and even seven contradicting statements in one topic. Besides, Quran not only contains ignorant, false, and contradicting statements, but also Satanic verses _this problem definitely is not caused by wrong translation.

“He is for instance, the All-Knowing; the All-Hearing; the All-Seeing; the All-Forgiving; the All- Loving; the All-Merciful; the Only One God. There is never a contradiction to this found anywhere in the Quran”.

ANSWER: The all-wise Allah, all-knower, and knower of the unseen? I doubt it, for Allah replaced his revelations [2:106 & 16:101]. Likewise, Satan was able to sneak his verses during Allah’s revelation to Muhammad, and Allah was not able to prevent Muhammad from uttering other gods. Muhammad in that event became the prophet of Satan. So it means Allah is powerless to know all and to see the unseen.

No contradictions? Islam gives you confusions: they say,  “our Koran contains no contradictions”, but you can find many in it https://silawantribe.com/2018/10/24/much-contradictions-in-quran/; Muslims say, “we are a religion of peace”,  but their Quran commands killing of all non-Muslims; Muslims say, “there is no compulsion in our religion”, but they execute their members who wanted to leave Islam; Muslims say, “Jesus did no die and resurrect”, but you can find a Koranic verse telling Jesus will die and resurrect; Muslims say, “Jesus is just human made of dust”, but you can find a Koranic verse telling Jesus is a spirit of Allah; and many more inconsistent claims. 

On the other hand, our God Jesus never erred, He’s flawless and powerful. He stopped the storm, expelled legion of demons from the possessed men, cured inborn physical disability, cured the grievous sicknesses like leprosy, He raised dead people and rose from the dead Himself. And He will come back to judge the people including Muslims [Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on Quran 43:61].

Scientific Miracles in Quran

ANSWER: When it comes to miracles and prophesies, the Bible has so much in it. But the so-called miracles in Quran are lies and ridiculous. Muslims just don’t know the false claims of their leaders because they are ignorant of their own scriptures. I tell you, there is no single miraculous verse in Quran. I will expose the falsehood of these so-called prophetic claims soon. 

“Bible” is NOT in the Bible 

ANSWER: I don’t know if the author of your source is ignorant of the Bible or he purposely twisted the truth. He is telling that the New Testament was not yet in the Bible at the time of Timothy, therefore, Paul was wrong to say to Timothy that he studied the Bible or Holy Scripture.

Your source quoted this, “Since you were a young man you have studied the holy scriptures, all scriptures inspired by God”,  as evidence that the Bible is not in the Bible.

First let me put down the complete verse, so that I can explain to you well. Here it is;

[2 Timothy 3:15] “And that from a child you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”.

Of the 25 Bible translations [https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-15.htm], I have not encountered a word “studied” but instead “taught or known” are generally used. If we talk about Holy Scriptures or Writings, it does not mean the Bible itself. This refers to the different Books inspired by God. Any book in the Bible can be called Holy Scripture. The Old Testament can be called Holy Scriptures as well. The word “Bible” is derived from the Koine Greek word “Ta Biblia” means “the books”. The Bible is composed of different writings which early Christians believed as inspired by God, but not all Holy Scriptures or books are in the Bible. In either way, whether Paul referred to the Old Testament or New Testament, or to both Scriptures, he was correct in saying to Timothy “you have known the Holy Scriptures”. Because the knowledge about God Jesus at the time of Timothy was already there. Paul and other Apostles were already writing and announcing to the people about the “good news or Gospel”. In fact, what the author of your source failed to realize is that, he is using the verse quoted from the Book of 2 Timothy written by Paul to Timothy, and this Book is a Holy Scripture for it is one of the Books in the New Testament. So, how come the author of your source said that the New Testament was not yet existing at the time of Timothy? All books in the New Testament are about Jesus. The author of your source shows his ignorance of the Bible.

Bible Curses Church Fathers Who REMOVED Book of Revelations

ANSWER: For your information, the Catholic Church never removed any book from the Bible, it was the Protestant Church which removed the seven books from the original Bible. For the first 1,400 years there was no other Christian Church emerged except the Catholicism. After Martin Luther was excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church, he founded his own Church in 1517 called ‘Protestantism’. He questioned which books should be part of his own Biblical canon.  At various times he advocated removing the Book of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation.  However, when he translated the Bible into German language, he kept the mentioned books. Therefore it was the Protestant Church which removed and put back the Book of revelation in their own Bible version.  As you know, not only Islam that severely attack the Catholic Church, but also the Protestantism and its offshoots (like Seventh  Day Adventist, Born Again, etc.).  Martin Luther removed some books from the original Bible for a couple reasons. First, he disagreed with a few doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church derived from these books, like purgatory and prayers for the dead. Second, these books contradicted with his faith-in-Jesus-alone doctrine. 

Whose Word Is It? 

The author says;So if you go to the Bible and point out some mistakes that are in it, you are going to be told (by Christians): Those mistakes were not there in the original manuscript, they have crept in so that we see them there today”.

ANSWER: Excuse me, it is Islam which uses this alibi. Which religion keeps telling that the original Arabic writing is correct, without contradictions, you can feel no doubt after you read, etc.? If there is a question raised against the Bible, Christians dig into it for an answer. And if there is any error of the translation from the origin, they show the evidence. Unlike Islam, which used to tell people that the Arabic version of Koran is correct, and only the translation made it wrong. For your information, the Bible is not only prophetic, but also historical. When it comes to prophesy (the word or act of God), the Bible is infallible. The supposed contradictions fell to the historical side. The Bible is 99-98 percent accurate, so its percentage of credibility is still high. How can a man preserve documents from 3400 years ago without a single flaw? 

 Are There Mistakes?

The author of your source presented verses [2 Samuel 10:18] and [1 Chronicles] as contradicting and erroneous.  

[2 Samuel 10:18] And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.

[1 Chronicles 19:18] But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.

Answer: Actually there are two contradictions raised by bible critics about this allegation; one, is the supposed numerical contradiction between the seven hundred mentioned in 2 Samuel and the seven thousands mentioned in 1 chronicles, and the other, is the forty thousand men who were slain by David which described as horsemen in 2 Samuel and footmen in 1 chronicles. But the author of your source just concerned of the latter. Nevertheless, I will solve the two of them. 

First, keep in mind that 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles were written by different authors. Each writer has his own way of presenting a report, so you cannot expect a similar wordings or figures of their stories. Likewise, if you have spotted dissimilar wordings or numerical figures in their reports, it does not mean these data are contradicting, but they can be two pieces of information as well.

If you can notice, the seven hundred mentioned in 2 Samuel is referred to the number of chariots, while the seven thousands mentioned in 1 chronicles is referred to the number of men in the chariots.

If you are a soldier whose means of transportation is only a horse, you can be called as a horseman or cavalier. And if you get down from a horse in order to fight on foot, then you can be called as footsoldier or footman. In the battle, horsemen and footmen can be applied interchangeably. 

 How Did Judas Die?

The author quoted [Matthew 27:5] and [Acts 1] as a contradiction. Since in the preceding verse, Judas hanged himself, but in the following verse Judas fell headlong.

ANSWER: Again this author did not specify the other so-called opposing verse. Let us read these alleged verses;

[Matthew 27:5] Then Judas threw the silver coins down in the Temple and went out and hanged himself.

[Acts 1:18] With the reward of his wickedness Judas bought a field, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines spilled out.

: [Mathew 27:5] tells us the cause of Judas death, which is ‘he hanged himself’. While [Acts 1:18] tells us what happened to the hanged dead body of Judas. When his corpse started to decompose, it fell headlong and his stomach burst open, spilling out his intestines. [Acts 1:18] is not a contradiction against [Matthew 27:5], but rather a continuation of Judas’ death account.

MY MESSAGE TO ISLAMIC APOLOGISTS 

Before you exalt your religion and assail accusations against the Bible, solve first the blunder in your Koran, Don’t you know that your Koran does not know about Trinity? Here are the proofs;

[Koran 4:171] “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. CHRIST JESUS the son of MARY was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on MARY, and a SPIRIT proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not “TRINITY” : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.”

[Koran 5:116] And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘TAKE ME AND MY MOTHER AS DEITIES BESIDES ALLAH ?'” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is knower of the unseen.

: In the verses above, the (all-wise, all-knower, and knower of the unseen) Allah, think that the Trinity persons are JESUS, MARY, and ALLAH.

Quran has many errors, but this error is great. This could never have happened since the Trinity is the main issue of the Islamic accusation against Catholicism. If Allah do not know about a simple subject here on Earth, how much more about Heavenly and spiritual matters? These verses will demolish Islam if its Billion followers can know and understand this fact. Take note that the Quran also failed to identify Mary mother of Jesus, it thought that Mary was Merriam, sister of Aaron and daughter of Imran; Also it failed to describe the shape of the Earth, it thinks that the Earth is spread like carpet [15:19, 20:53, 43:10]; Also, Allah thought that the Earth and the sky were once a solid piece and later separated [21:30]. These errors confirm the notion that the Quran was mainly written by Muhammad and his cohorts.

Muhammad had scribes that wrote his revelations down for him. One scribe was `Abdullah Ibn Sa’d Ibn Abi Sarh. As Sarh wrote these revelations down, he frequently made suggestions on improving their wording. Muhammad often agreed and allowed the changes to be made. Eventually, Sarh left Islam, knowing it could not be from God if a mere scribe were allowed to change God’s word. Later, after the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad ordered Sarh’s death.

To those who do not know about Trinity, the Holy Trinity is a doctrine of the Catholic Church that God is one nature but emphasized Himself to mankind in three persons, namely, (God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).